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Hi all! The "New Comics Discussion Post" for last week is going up a bit late, because it was a big week and we all needed time to get through our stacks. I think we're going to lean toward waiting until the beginning of the week to talk about the previous week's comics, for that reason, but we welcome feedback from the community about what is the best time to post.

Certainly, if you've already written reaction posts to last week's books, feel free to link them in the comments here. We only have one request here which is please do not spoil (and do not link from here to posts that spoil) X-Factor #39. This has been requested by writer Peter David, within the book itself. He doesn't want people giving away the ending of his books online. The mods here have mixed opinions regarding whether this is really a good idea, and if he keeps saying this every month some of our patience might wear a little thin. But, this once at least, we'll indulge the writer's request.

Meanwhile, there were a lot of other X-Men and related comics out this past week. The one I'd like to talk about is

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL #2
COVER BY: YANICK PAQUETTE
WRITER: MATT FRACTION
PENCILS: MITCH BREITWEISER

I have intensely mixed feelings about the character Emma Frost. She's not someone that I find it particularly easy to like -- at the core of the character, good or evil, I think she's both a bully and a snob -- but I often find people I don't particularly like to be interesting characters. Emma, though, I often find to be unevenly written. A lot of writers can capture her glittering surface, but it doesn't seem that often that they bother to dig deeper, so we get a character who's amusingly bitchy, or awesomely powerful, but gives little evidence of having motives or goals. Or, when writers do attempt to explore her, we get something like the short segment from the recent Manifest Destiny anthology story, where Emma sits around sulking about how everybody hates her because she used to be evil, until Wolverine yells at her to get over it. Or, possibly the least attractive alternative, writers who don't find the bitchy surface of Emma appealing, try to pretend it's not there. Then she becomes generic hero's girlfriend, or the woman who 'senses' things when the plot requires it -- like Counselor Troi in stripper gear.

Since Matt Fraction took over writing the X-Men, I've wondered which direction his Emma would end up taking, or if he would be the writer (the first since Joss Whedon, really) who gave Emma Frost some real substance. Based on this nnual, the outlook seems good. The most obvious purpose of this comic is to explain Emma's role in Norman Osborn's "Dark Reign" cabal. It's not that surprising that Emma would ally herself with Namor, King of Atlantis. Of the characters with a seat at Norman's table, Namor is the other one who isn't out-and-out evil. Rather, Emma and Namor both have strong political agendas that don't necessarily mesh with the powers-that- be, and they want to make sure those are protected. It doesn't hurt that they're also the kind of smart, snarky characters that Fraction obviously enjoys writing about.

The issue has parallel plots, drawn by artists with distinct styles (I liked them both; your mileage may vary). One has Emma in the present-day, plotting to secure Namor as an ally -- by indulging if not encouraging his sexual interest in her, as well as literally offering him the head of a rival. The other plot of the issue flashes back to show Emma's past interactions with Namor, with Sebastian Shaw, and some other power players in the Marvel U. (I didn't think Tony Stark or Norman Osborn's cameos here were strictly necessary, but I can roll with it for the sake of Dark Reign). In the flashback, Emma is part of a similar plan to manipulate Namor. I don't want to give away much more than that -- the plot has maybe got a few more twists than it needs -- but overall it's intricate and interesting. I really like Fraction's vision of Emma as a woman who's smart, bold, and more than a little reckless, fundamentally on her own even when she's ostensibly someone's consort. Also, Fraction's take on Namor is always a treat, and I wouldn't be at all sorry to see more of him in the X-Men books. He is, after all, a mutant, as this comic took pains to point out on several occasions.

So what did you think? Did you enjoy the story in the annual, and did it give you any hints of where the X-Men might be headed? What about other new books (or books you've read recently). X-Men: Legacy might have had my favorite plot twist of any book that came out last week, X-Factor included. X-Men: Manifest Destiny concluded the Mystiqe/Iceman story on a note I didn't really enjoy, but it did have Phonogram writer Kieron Gillen telling a Dazzler story.

What else struck you in this week's comics?

Spoilers for all released books (except for X-Factor) are allowed in comments. Please don't spoil any future books.

Comments

( 70 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]harmonyangel wrote:
Jan. 26th, 2009 11:12 pm (UTC)
at the core of the character, good or evil, I think she's both a bully and a snob

There. That. THAT is why I can't stand Emma Frost. Because, at her core, whatever her strength, whatever her good deeds, she's fundamentally not a good person.

Wolverine is fundamentally a good person. Tony Stark is fundamentally a good person. Lots of characters with fairly unappealing surfaces are fundamentally good people. Emma is not, and I can't take any enjoyment in her existence.

Um. I didn't much like the Annual, but I don't have coherent thoughts on the reasons beyond "I hate Emma." (And those reasons do exist.)

But I also didn't find the Legacy twist to be all that interesting. I'm glad Carey's picking up plot points, but he's also picking up possibly the least interesting plot point from Astonishing X-Men, and the book is still too much full of filler for the moments of greatness to shine through. I liked it, and the twist convinced me to keep buying it, but I much, much preferred X-Factor for twists.

Sadly, last week was just an Avengers week for me, beyond The Book We Dare Not Spoil.
[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 26th, 2009 11:20 pm (UTC)
The idea of a "good person" has a lot of layers to me, and I'm not sure that I think Tony is one any more than Emma is. I just. . . tend to find his character flaws interesting and hers not. I don't really have trouble finding flawed characters interesting, though, as long as I feel like the story recognizes and works with their flaws, and Emma doesn't get that too much. I also think the young version of her doesn't necessarily have those qualities I dislike, so an issue like this lets me think about the connection between point A and point B.

I'd like to see what Carey does with Danger and Xavier; it wasn't a great comic but I think there's potential. I still have to think about X-Factor, I may be too colored by external things at this point. I'm not sure the characters in that story have ever grabbed me the way they did for you, and I'm having a little trouble coming back into it, perhaps.

[info]harmonyangel wrote:
Jan. 26th, 2009 11:28 pm (UTC)
I find flawed characters interesting--flawless characters aren't realistic, or interesting. But I have a hard time with people whose flaws are in intent--I much prefer people who hurt people through thoughtless accident, or through an idea that they're doing "the right thing," than those who hurt people out of a desire to see people hurt. And that's who Emma Frost is.

I also probably have a LOT of unresolved high school mean girls issues, and Emma Frost is one of those people who would have sent me home in tears every day and still cause me to hyperventilate 5 years later if I saw her in a bar. So when writers are obviously in love with her, and the ways she's bitchy in exactly the way those girls were... I feel personally hurt. So it's not completely rational, but inescapable for me.

And all that is on TOP of what she did to Scott and Jean.

I am excited to see how the Danger thing pulls out, and the ghost town is a beautiful setting. We'll see how that goes. X-Factor has just made me happy since issue 1, and was the first current X-book I started reading regularly, so my attachment to it is beyond reason at this point.
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[info]distractedone wrote:
Mar. 20th, 2009 04:47 am (UTC)
Hmm...
[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Mar. 20th, 2009 04:55 am (UTC)
Re: Hmm...
Yes?
[info]harmonyangel wrote:
Mar. 20th, 2009 04:56 am (UTC)
Re: Hmm...
I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make, here. That Emma can be many things? Sure. So can any comic book character.

It doesn't mean I have to like her. Half the scans you just posted are exhibit A in why I really, really don't.

But if you do, I'm happy the character makes you happy.
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[info]angelophile wrote:
Jan. 26th, 2009 11:49 pm (UTC)
See, coming from the other viewpoint, who grew familiar with Emma mostly through Scott Lobdell's work with the character, "bully and snob" is fundamentally NOT what the character is about in my eyes, any more than "violent mass-murderer" is fundamentally Logan's character. Even at her most villainous she had a deep concern for those in her care (although sometimes, how shall we say, it manifested itself in less than healthy ways).

Honestly, Lobdell's issues of Generation X and the run-up issues in his X-men titles where she discovered the death of the Hellions are Emma's defining moments for me and I'm sure some will argue that they made the character too soft, but that Emma is the one I think plays best with the other X-men - witness her relationship with Bobby during that period. Hard, an occasional bitch, but not stone cold.
[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 03:26 am (UTC)
I've never read any Generation X, so I can't comment. She's been written as a bully and a snob since she showed up in New X-Men, though, if she's been written with any personality at all.

Do you see any connection between the character as she was in the Lobdell days and the way she is now? Because that's what I might be missing.
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[info]alixtii wrote:
Jan. 26th, 2009 11:59 pm (UTC)
You know, I wasn't going to make an effort to follow Emma's path post-Messiah CompleX, since it's hard enough keeping track of the kids, but now I just might, because you and the commenters above me have made me really curious. Probably more fundamental than anything else to who Emma is is her vocation as an educator; the loss of the school would affect her in a way they wouldn't Scott (who was an X-Men first and a teacher second, I think, while Emma was vice versa), not really. (And I'm facepalming that it's only now that the parallels with Genosha are striking me.)
[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 01:19 pm (UTC)
Oops, I thought I replied to this before -- I think you're right about all the interesting things there are to follow up with Emma. Unfortunately it really hasn't happened that much, so you're not missing a ton. It's barely been addressed that Emma misses her role as a teacher, and that the closing of the school would affect her; she's come across (in my opinion) as just following Scott around and waiting for him to decide something. Uncanny is starting to remedy that a little, but it hasn't been front and center.
[info]alixtii wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 08:38 pm (UTC)
For some reason, that doesn't surprise me. Following Scott blindly, hmm? (What are you up to, Emma?)
[info]uraniachang wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 01:36 am (UTC)
I think the story of Uncanny Annual is a good way to tell Emma's character, let's face it, the only person in X-Men fandom she's probably the only one to pull of that kind of hard job.
There are lots of gray areas between good and bad, and so long as she ste her heart in the right place, I still like Emma more that any female characters I ever did.
I won't say she's my favorite, but I like her, cause she's more real, and different than others.

As for Manifest Destiny, it sucks, from the Iceman and Mystique story (can somebody just kill her already? And don't send the Wolverine, he sucks at killing her), to the Dazzler one, through and through.
[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 03:27 am (UTC)
Why didn't you like the Dazzler story? Curious. I thought it was fun.
[info]uraniachang wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 02:55 pm (UTC)
Maybe it's more because of the character, I'm not a fan and Dazzler hasn't had much to do with the X-Men until recently, she no longer feels like an X-Man to me.
[info]alms4anx_leper wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 12:13 pm (UTC)
I didn't really want to like the annual going in as I felt I was being deprived the regular series for another month, much like what happened with the Ghost Boxes mini-series replacing the series proper.

Having said that, I found myself liking it in spite of myself particularly (a) Shaw's man-crush on Namor which was hilarious and (b) Bored Emma becoming scared Emma as her suicide gambit looks like not paying off.

For those keeping count, Emma has probably now slept with 2 of the illuminati and 1 of the dark cabal. She's going to complete the set if it kills her!!

I hope that her involvement with Osborn and co is referenced in the main series and not left to happen elsewhere so that the annual has merit in the X-World and not just the Marvel world at large.

Astonishing was fine but the reveal at the end was spoiled a little by the characters mentioning the character a few times for no good reason.

Kingbreaker is already starting to wear out its welcome. Of course there's a female equivalent of Gladiator to go along with female Black Panther, Loki etc. Hopefully space pirates (automatically 100% more fun) will liven things up a bit.
[info]alixtii wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 01:00 pm (UTC)
as her suicide gambit looks like not paying off

Wow, Again?
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[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 02:04 pm (UTC)
We are being TOLD that 'Dark Reign' is a bridge to creating more interaction between the Xmen and the core Marvel U, but who knows how that's going to go?

I was also reluctant to read this because I want to get back to the main story (Maddie!) but I ended up liking what it added.
(no subject) - [info]alms4anx_leper - Jan. 27th, 2009 02:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
[info]selenak wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 02:04 pm (UTC)
I liked this one very much. (Though your version of a certain first encounter is still my fanon. Emma just didn't want Shaw to know, so she pretended. Clearly.) Re: Emma in general, if I hadn't "met" her through AXM but Morrison (or a lot of the generic stuff you mention), I think I would have disliked her or been indifferent. As it is, I was very frustrated by most takes on Emma post-Joss (safe, curiously enough, Bendis in the Dark Reign conference issue), and am glad Fraction picks up the slack, because yes, layers, not just Glorious Bitch Queen or Deanna Troi In Blonde. And the Namor interaction, past and present, was great fun. They play off each other very well in Fraction's hand. As for future prospects, if Emma and Namor have their own mini cabal among Osborn's bigger one, we could be in for double and triple crosses on a big scale, and other than that boringly general prediction, I have nothing.

Re: Legacy, I must be the only one who loved the Danger versus Charles issue in AXM (which I still think is one of the best depictions of Charles Xavier as being kick-ass while simultanously showing him as flawed (just not in the over the top way some other X-Men stories do), so I was thrilled to see Carey pick up that plot thread. (Not that I don't agree Danger is less compelling than the other characters Joss introduced to the 'verse, but I didn't find her dull, either.)
[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 02:12 pm (UTC)
I get the impression that Bendis and Fraction are bouncing ideas off each other regarding the various Illuminati, and I think it's improved Bendis's Emma quite a bit, at least based on the one Dark Reign issue. I wasn't even going to read DR, because I dreaded Bendis's Emma, but I went with it on your recommendation and she's pretty clearly the most interesting person in the room. (Also, you're right, Tony was TOTALLY undercover as a drunken lout at the Hellfire party and he and Emma were chatting telepathically, much like her and Namor in Dark Reign).

What did you think of Emma's "suicide gambit" as someone else called it? I thought it was an amazingly layered action; ostensibly she 'knew' Namor would save her but she couldn't have really known, and no one any sense of self-preservation, or much of anything to live for, would try it. I sort of thought Fraction was setting up a dichotomy between Emma as someone who's starting to develop a concept of mutant identity and Shaw as somebody who just pretends to have one. So Emma's acting like a hero (she echoes Scott going on that suicide mission in Astonishing) but without a really heroic cause to fight for -- she's just playing one of Shaw's games, because he told her to, thinking he controls her, which couldn't be further from the truth.
[info]selenak wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 05:26 pm (UTC)
All kidding aside, I do think Tony was undercover, because a) the drunken playboy act was that over the top and b)this was during the "he's my bodyguard" time, and clearly Shaw has no idea that Tony Stark is Iron Man, he just wants him for his money.:)

Suicide gambit: I'm with you on the levels, and yes, it was very much Emma starting to develop her identity as a mutant and Shaw pretending (except when he says it's all about power).
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[info]resolute wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 02:54 pm (UTC)
I liked X-Factor, I am reading Kingbreaker despite not caring about the plot and despite actively disliking Vulcan because I want to see what happens to Rachel and Lorna, I thought the plot twist at the end of Legacy was the first interesting thing Carey has done since Legacy started.

Uncanny X-Men Annual . . . I re-read this, Deuce, and I I disliked Acuna's art, for one thing, so that affected my enjoyment. (Though since I follow Breitweiser on Twitter, I was glad to see I like his stuff.) And I disliked the flashback story, though I think it was necessary to make the present-day plot work.

I was reading this entirely for Emma's characterization, not for how the plot played out. So here are the character-based quibbles I had.

Why does Emma blow off Namor in the Dark Reign meeting, in the first scene they have?
Why does Shaw even want Namor in the Inner Circle? The Hellfire Club traditionally is fending off applicants with a STICK, and Shaw is a really level-headed leader. It makes no sense.
Why is Emma a bitch to Scott on the phone? I mean, I understand she's playing this game of roles, but why do it that way? I mean, I half-expected Scott and the X-Men to show up en mass, thinking that that conversation was code for an emergency. It makes no sense.
Why get Namor's attention with the suicide ploy? I thought that was the MOST ooc moment, since Emma dearly loves being a survivor. She doesn't, until Astonishing X-Men, put herself at risk like that without having better odds.
Also, Shaw never CARED whether Emma cuckholded him. It was part of their RELATIONSHIP. Ooc.
WHY does Emma fall for Namor? That makes NO SENSE. And, if she's not actually falling for him and it's a ploy, then SHAW'S actions make sense but his DIALOG does not. And if Emma is trying to play Shaw off against Namor, we need a scene of her making that clear in some way.
I liked the present-day plot a lot, on rereading it. Especially the limo-bargaining scenes.
Okay, and if Emma was siding with Namor, she did a bad job as an ally by not briefing him on Shaw. And if she was siding with Shaw, then she did a bad job of fulfilling her mission. And her shock at Shaw employing Sentinels seems incredibly naive for Emma, who was a damn jaded 16-year-old, you know?
And WHY mindwipe Emma? Why not use her memory of having failed Shaw to goad her into darker things? And, dudes, does Selene even HAVE that power? If so, WHERE in the canon is telepathic mindwiping revealed for her? Because I missed it.
I liked the end of the present-day plot.

ANYWAY.

I would really, really like someone to fill in the parts that didn't work for me, please.
[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 03:11 pm (UTC)
See, I had really no pre-existing conceptions about Emma and Shaw's relationship or how the Hellfire club or any of that, so I was just taking this character piece for what it was. If you're saying it doesn't fit the way she's been portrayed before, I can't argue with that, I just don't have any basis for it. I really liked the presentation of young Emma being kind of at loose ends, testing boundaries, and trying to figure out her life.
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[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 03:12 pm (UTC)
Also, I thought the mindwipe was to avoid having to explain "Why did she go back to Shaw after this happened?" Which smacks a little of nerd-proofing but didn't actually affect THIS story because by the time we see her again she's remembered it.
[info]alms4anx_leper wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 03:16 pm (UTC)
So other then those few points, you loved it ;-)
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[info]likeadeuce wrote:
Jan. 27th, 2009 03:25 pm (UTC)
OK, a few more -- how I read these things:

>Why does Emma blow off Namor in the Dark >Reign meeting, in the first scene they have?

Not wanting the others to know they're allies/playing hard to get.

>Why does Shaw even want Namor in the Inner >Circle? The Hellfire Club traditionally is fending off >applicants with a STICK, and Shaw is a really >level-headed leader. It makes no sense.

Because Namor spurned the offer and Shaw hates rejection.

>Why is Emma a bitch to Scott on the phone? I >mean, I understand she's playing this game of >roles, but why do it that way?

In a Doylist sense, the writer may be coding that they're about to split. In a Watsonian sense, they're having problems based on not telling each other what they're up to. Also, Emma's a bitch.

>Why get Namor's attention with the suicide ploy? >I thought that was the MOST ooc moment, since >Emma dearly loves being a survivor. She doesn't, >until Astonishing X-Men, put herself at risk like >
>that without having better odds.

I see this as kind of a transitional time for her. She's gone out and made this new life for herself, but she's still only doing it by subordinating herself to powerful men. Shaw's treatment of her where he emphasizes that he's the boss, him, always (this may be one of the things you had a problem with?) emphasizes this. So she tries to rebel against him but she still can't actually find a better way to do it than subordinating herself to a powerful man. (Which, if you think about it, isnt' that different than her behavior re: Jean and Scott in 'New X-Men').

>Also, Shaw never CARED whether Emma >cuckholded him. It was part of their >RELATIONSHIP. Ooc.

I have no idea about this, but it's not implausible that he doesn't like being lied to and played. I guess you're sensitive to jealousy being used as an easy plot device, and that may be a valid criticism, but I didn't think it was that far-fetched.

>WHY does Emma fall for Namor? That makes NO >SENSE. (snip)

I'll admit that was convoluted and I have to look at it again.
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